A Date with Destiny 2023-01-21

0:00:00
Unknown_02: people waiting he's apparently early I guess we're waiting on uh on destiny before I don't know I'm waiting for like I don't you say 6 p.m that's pretty pretty hard and fast it's not like it's not like a huge ask this isn't a video no it's not a video game stream um

Unknown_02: I mean it's definitely it's it's triple confirmed at this point if this is like a troll like I'm not gonna actually do this I'm not gonna talk a bit of a dick move I would say

Unknown_03: Are you two gonna play Factorio? No. I don't like Factorio.

Unknown_02: I like the other one, Satisfactory. I think Factorio is like a really tremendously ugly game. And I'm not usually one to be like, oh, a game is too ugly for me to like. I really just, I don't like the aesthetic of Factorio at all. It's like these ugly brown bugs and all these ugly buildings and ugly fucking ground and your character's fucking ugly. It's like I'm staring at like this, super pixelated brown smear like what the fuck am I supposed to do how am I supposed to meanwhile satisfactory is like everything is beautiful like the monsters are super cool and the terrain is beautiful and the buildings are bright and you're zipping around and it looks it just looks awesome bad take look I just don't like brown I think you guys know me by this point to know how much I don't like brown

0:01:45
Unknown_02: I don't know what to tell you. It's just like I try I tried playing it and then you're just like you're punished by for doing anything because the fucking bugs attack again It's just like I don't want to be bothered by bugs the entire time. I'm playing the fucking game ABT to make the hangout 602 p.m. It is no 607 p.m. I

Unknown_02: I think he's streaming too. These fucking kids, man. Destiny has no excuse either. Cause he's like older than I am, but he's never had a job interview in his life. Has destiny ever worked? I don't want to start dogging them for the stream. Cause I'm not going to, I do not want to create a sense of hostility before I even start talking to him. But has he ever had a job? Yes. What does he do? What did he do before he was professional streamer?

0:02:17
Unknown_02: He used to run a casino. What?

Unknown_03: Is that true? He was a floor cleaner at a casino. Okay.

Unknown_03: Insurance sales and shoes.

0:02:50
Unknown_03: I didn't know that.

Unknown_03: Here's pity money.

Unknown_02: Thank you. Thank you.

Unknown_02: Don't expect your super jet. I mean, it'll be in towards the end. I don't know how long this will last. I assume once it gets started, it'll probably go on for forever. At least three hours, but.

Unknown_03: I shouldn't have even started. I should've just let you people wait.

Unknown_02: I feel like I'm wasting everybody. I could be like eating something right now. Wait, there we go.

0:03:23
Unknown_03: They got rid of, he doesn't.

Unknown_03: It's meet, it's meet.google.com. Jesus fucking Christ.

Unknown_03: You can't even find Google Hangouts. It's like, no, you have to come join our discord. I'm not doing your fucking discord.

Unknown_03: What do you mean telecommunication options that aren't, that aren't discord?

0:03:56
Unknown_02: Like we could just use telegram. Really? I'm, I think destiny has telegraph.

Unknown_03: Signal, Telegram, Google Meet, I think there's StreamYard, boot up StreamYard. I like get some grandfather, I need some ticking.

Unknown_03: TikTok music.

0:04:28
Unknown_03: Grandfather clock ticking.

Unknown_03: oh wallpaper yeah there we go where's wallpaper heaven

0:05:11
Unknown_02: Ventrilo. No, that's a good suggestion. You know, they like, they like destroyed all those, um, all those old ventrilo harassment videos. Okay. There we go. I gotta go. Google meets link.

Unknown_05: Hello Joshua, I am already recording to say no You're what I'm already on live so I'm just We're all live all three of us are live.

0:05:45
Unknown_02: Yeah good. I'm just I'm just giving a friendly heads up All right Josh just like just like last time no gamer words K YouTube TOS and YouTube TOS.

Unknown_00: That's a lot of gamer words. I mean, you can swear. Just just avoid, you know, NFT. Avoid those ones. You should be good. Yeah. I'm trying my best. All right, Destiny. He's going to get his goy slop and then we'll be back in a sec, I think.

Unknown_02: Oh, wait, he's going to eat live on it like as we talk.

0:06:18
Unknown_00: No, I think he just I just watched him. He has like a bag of takeout. I think so.

Unknown_02: Okay. Okay, good. Sorry, that would that would troll me tremendously. I would become irate immediately.

Unknown_00: Yeah, I know you'd be mad at that. But no, this will be epic. I apologize for the technical difficulties. I looked up Google Hangout because I I forgot what it was called. So like it was Google Hangout, but apparently they ended Google Hangout. It's called Google Chat now. So I thought it was like over. Yeah, no, it's just neat.

Unknown_02: No, I think it's what they call it. It's the same thing as Zoom, but there's like literally 10 million alternatives to Discord. I tried joining your Discord and I got hit with this wall that said like, beep boop, you must submit identifying documents, passport scan. I was like, no, I'm not doing that. Dude, you told me you don't have Discord. I have a super secret Discord that I only use to talk to trans-identifying programmers in certain areas that don't have any other chat rooms.

0:06:50
Unknown_00: Nice, nice.

Unknown_00: What's up, Destiny?

Unknown_01: Hi, what's up? How we doing?

Unknown_00: Doing good, how are you? Doing great. Okay, this is the conversation. Null, meet your idol, Steven Bonnell II, Destiny.

Unknown_02: Well, we already know each other. We used to toss Zerg back in the day.

0:07:29
Unknown_01: Yeah, those 2v2s are wild, man.

Unknown_02: We've never actually spoken. I know of him through my site and just through the ether, and he knows of me through my site. So we have like a big, probably a big understanding of each other, and that's about it.

Unknown_01: The real question is Why do you why do you deny banning me? It's like four years ago. I never was happy I know I got suspended from Kiwi farms for like a year. It happened when I started shitposting my thread You still deny it to this day, huh?

0:08:04
Unknown_02: Yeah, I don't think I mean I could look I looked at the logs. There was no record of the ban Okay.

Unknown_01: Well someone's tampering with them in the back end, I guess

Unknown_01: What are we doing here today? What the fuck is this? Turkey Tom.

Unknown_02: I want to reach out to your audience of tens of millions of gamers and explain to them that everything's going to shit. Specifically, the internet is going to shit.

Unknown_01: OK.

Unknown_00: Why is it going to shit, Josh? What's your perspective on that? Why is it over? Why is it over? Why are we not back?

0:08:38
Unknown_02: Okay, so the Destiny's people are familiar with Drop Kiwi Farms because Kefl's made the genius decision to try and implicate him in all of my sins through one post where he said that we played StarCraft together. And the irony of this post is that it was designed to troll me and it succeeded. Because he said something like, we were best friends and I would curate his thread to make him look as favorable as possible. And people actually believed this and they gave me shit for it and say, Destiny says that you're best friends and you're going to make his thread look super nice for him. Is that true? And the real irony was that many years later, like six years later, this comes around in the form of Keffels. using this post as conclusive evidence that Destiny is complicit in the forum, active on the forum, best friends with me, probably finances it in some way, and Destiny was in some way forced or given reason to defend the forum, ironically, even though I don't think he particularly cares for it in the form of his gigantic manifesto. Is that all accurate to you?

0:09:45
Unknown_01: Uh, was this to me or to Turkey Tom?

Unknown_02: Either of you.

Unknown_01: Yeah, it sounds accurate. I will say.

Unknown_01: Oh shit. Oh, I got kicked out of the discord. I'll say I will say that I don't defend Kiwi farms Okay, I just found the idea that if you want to take a website off the internet It should be like breaking law or something. I don't like the idea of Like public like public pressure campaigns to get shit shut down So he's not breaking a law. It should probably be allowed to stand. That's what I would say.

Unknown_02: I agree only minor clarification I would give do you know the extent of the damage that drop Kiwi farms has done? Oh

0:10:21
Unknown_01: to you, Kiwi Farms, or the- The infrastructure, just like the total sum of all things that have dropped in the wake of the, what I consider to be like an organized harassment campaign, because the shit that they did was crazy.

Unknown_01: Yeah, I mean, considering how often the site was going up and down and the different providers you have to hop through and everything, I imagine it was quite extensive, the damage done.

Unknown_02: I lost my Google Voice number. I lost my registered agent for the company in Wyoming, which I still haven't replaced. I lost my mailing address in Florida, which I use to collect mail from banks and stuff and send it to me where I actually live.

0:10:51
Unknown_02: I lost Cloudflare, which in turn exposed my IP addresses. And then I lost my Tier 1 ISP hookups to Zio. I could not host the site through any ISP that used Voxility. And then major tier one ISPs like Arleon, Lumen, and by extension CenturyLink and Quest were blocking their own customers for connecting to the site.

Unknown_02: And this was not because of any... Wait, wait, wait.

Unknown_01: Can I just ask on that last one? Mm-hmm. ISPs were blocking customers from accessing the website? Yes. If you were a customer of CenturyLink or Quest, you were blocked.

0:11:30
Unknown_02: No matter what possible routes existed, they would actually prohibit their own customers from accessing the Kiwi Farms or any website that I hosted on my IPs.

Unknown_01: That's interesting.

Unknown_02: It's insane. And I'll get into net neutrality later because I have, you know, a spiel for it, but it should concern everybody. This was like four different Mac, like what they're called Internet backbones, their ISPs that are massive and they connect to one each other without any fees. And this is essentially the web of trust that makes up the Internet. So the fact that these companies dropped at all without a court order should scare people. The fact that CenturyLink, which is also Quest, Lumen, formerly Layer 3, was blocking their own customers from accessing sites should scare people. And even in places with net neutrality, like Sweden and Norway, Arleon was blocking connections for their customers and also transit through their company to the Kiwi farms.

0:12:02
Unknown_01: I was like a due diligence question just relating to that. When you're saying they blocked them, this wasn't like some random dipshit emailed you and said unblocked like you had like multiple people testing. I gave them instructions on how to test the connectivity and you could see where it drops off and would always be on the specific ISPs.

0:12:38
Unknown_02: And then I had people actually within the company, which I can't verify, but I believe them based on what they were saying. They were telling me that there was like, especially in early on, that there was people in the U.S. that were doing this, but the people in Europe were trying to combat it.

Unknown_02: I had and this the thing that really frustrates me about this is that Never not once not a single one of these companies at any point pointed to specific Content and said this violates this part of our AUP. It's always just you're dropped you wake up a bullshit I received no contact at any point with cloudflare not once at any point did any of them reach out to me and explain what the situation was and Just every single one of these people with the exception of my registered agent who quoted some weird thing about an executive order about Russia Which was not applicable at all, but said that I had a job for that, but for the rest of them. It was silence things went on and off they took us down and brought us back up you know a week later without any explanation as to what the fuck was happening and And it was all the whims of, you know, just whatever data engineer happened to be on on shift that day or who brought it up later. And it was completely, you know, unaccountable, unappealable, completely opaque. No, not even an effort to try and stipulate violations. Cloudflare said that we had a threat to human life that was visible on the site never He did not tell me Personally, and he did not report it to law enforcement because I received no contact from law enforcement about any post Related to an imminent threat to human life that he said would be actionable by the police. So I know it's bullshit and and I this I mean this is I

0:14:19
Unknown_02: unprecedented. I've never heard of a US legal website being pulled apart like this just because of complaint volume. And that's what it is. It's not specific TOS violations or AUP violations. It is people called up the CEO, from what I was told, somebody in particular, I don't want to name names because I don't know if that'll get you in trouble, but Someone in particular called up the CEO's wife of GTT, a tier one company, and said, let's have a girl talk about the Kiwi farm.

0:14:54
Unknown_01: Wait, if you're worried about getting in trouble for naming names, you can name whatever name you want, that's fine. As long as you're not using slurs or whatever, go for it, okay.

Unknown_02: Liz Fong Jones was a friend of Keffel's, but they parted ways. After Keffel's decided that they were done with Drop Kiwi Farms after Cloudflare, Liz Fong Jones has been after the site since about 2017, I want to say.

Unknown_01: Gotcha, gotcha.

Unknown_02: And they allegedly called up the CEO's wife of GTT and said, let's have a girl talk. And if you don't know, Liz Fong Jones is trans. And they called up at about 6 a.m. in the U.S. time where this person was located. And it's purely a combination of harassment, complaints, and intimidation. And that kind of segues into what I want to say about net neutrality. I am a proponent of net neutrality, even though that's not very popular on the right because Trump put in that fucking retard Ajit Pai, who was a Verizon CEO, of course, and he revoked net neutrality. But net neutrality gives, in this instance, if they could not have a justification, a legal justification for black-holing the site, these people would be able to reply to the complaint volume and simply say, my hands are tied. I don't have legal standing to disrupt the internet this way. So I can't, sorry, no matter what you say or do to me, you know, I'm not at liberty to do this. And that's a very good thing, I think, for people to have in their pocket as a card to play when these deplatforming campaigns happen. But for whatever reason, people on the right are convinced that net neutrality is just like a scheme to give net- Like communism for the internet, it's like fucking stupid.

0:16:07
Unknown_01: Which is funny because in a way they almost are like begging for net neutrality when it comes to social media companies when they talk about revoking section 230 and shit. So it's kind of funny, yeah.

Unknown_02: Yeah yeah it's and you know I don't even know what to say yeah it's like they think that it gives Netflix free money or something it's it's completely misunderstood and it's very tragic because it's something that everybody desperately needs there's no reason why you should want the post office the electric company the water company the disposal companies the roads or the internet to or the telephone as was the case with the the bell telecommunications company and breakup That you should want these essential services to decide who can and cannot do what with who I made this joke like I think a year or two ago But I said that with the direction that we're going I think we're gonna get to the point to where there are certain undesirable figures where people are putting pressure on like leasing management companies and shit to like not rent you an apartment if you're like

0:16:59
Unknown_01: Do you have extreme or something where people are gonna be like, yeah, dude, don't rent to that guy. He's a Nazi. Do you want a Nazi living? And then like whole management companies are gonna start like doing background checks and shit on people to figure out who's like blocked from renting apartments.

Unknown_02: I'm sure if I tried to rent, you know, an office building to do a registered agent at in some state for the, like they would kick us out immediately. Even if I was paying rent, like just for the, you know, an address to put the company to, it's like, we would lose that.

Unknown_01: It's also really extreme too, because when you talk about things like Cloudflare, you talk about things like registered agents. These are literally things that exist to give, to some extent, some shield of anonymity. A lot of people think of Cloudflare as just DDoS protection, which it does, but Cloudflare also masks your, you said your IP address, a lot of information that you can get behind what would be the Cloudflare stuff. So the idea that they're dropping somebody for like,

0:17:53
Unknown_01: Like what you said, complaint volume, because it's not like there's, like if there was like a terrorist shooting or something that originated from a site, okay, I could kind of see that. Or if there were like violent campaigns being organized or child porn being hosted or whatever, like this starts to make more sense. But for just like complaint volume, because people just don't like people bullying people from a site, that's really scary.

0:18:33
Unknown_02: And just real quick, I want to reiterate this. I mentioned this with Kirky Tom when we spoke, but Matthew Prince effectively made a statement that the Kiwi Farms was the worst website that he had seen. Something to that effect. It was really extreme. And I know for a fact that right now Cloudflare protects multiple sites related to ISIS that do funding and publications, propaganda related to ISIS. and they host websites dedicated to animal torture like if you want to go if you want to go see an animal get a hole drilled through its head you know a living monkey baby there are websites for that that are known to cloudflare that they choose to protect so the the backtracking to say that it was an imminent threat to human life is is ridiculous it was simply to save face because they had put out a statement something happened by the way between the end of August where they said we're not, they clarified policies and said, we're not going to do this because this is really a terrible idea. It increases censorship. It causes totalitarian dictatorships to complain that we should take down human rights organizations, yada, yada. And then two days later on Labor Day weekend at 6 p.m. West coast time on a Saturday, um, they decide fuck Kiwi farms and they drop us and say that there was like some urgent issue that obviously never happened because Keffel's is alive and well. and I received no complaints from law enforcement. The Irish police I reached out to didn't know.

0:19:14
Unknown_01: You know, it's just... Yeah, so let's be a little clear because I want all of the... The thing that irritates me is that when people talk about a lot of this stuff, we're not like 100% like what's happening with that thing. So, the imminent threat referred to was on Kiwi Farms, there were two threats that were posted and then taken down within the course of, I think, 15 minutes.

0:19:54
Unknown_01: And those are the things that are being referred to by Cloudflare, I believe, when they did the dropout. Well, they don't refer to them specifically. They just said imminent threats.

Unknown_01: The one question I had before we get into those, did you end up removing both of those, or were those taken down and deleted by, okay, gotcha.

Unknown_02: To clarify, the post that was actually on the site was deleted by the user.

Unknown_02: You can explain why you delete a post when you do, and the user chose to provide a message that was along the lines of, bad joke, sorry. So that was deleted by the, simply, and the user deleted it because using the, as you described it, Reddit Karma system, people chose to give it negative ratings. So it received a ton of negative ratings calling the post idiotic. And he said, oh, people don't like this. They don't get the joke. It's not funny to them, whatever. And he deleted it by his own choice. And then it was actioned by a moderator within, I think, 30 minutes thereafter. So this post was up for 15 minutes, and it was deleted by the user, and it was a joke. The other one was posted to poll it wasn't even on the kiwi farms It gave a shout out to the kiwi farms and I think also hitler and it wasn't on my fucking website So it's like was that so weird?

0:21:14
Unknown_01: Um, the weird the one kid it was the note in front of the apartment It was like taking outside of keffel's like a part of a friend's apartment in northern ireland And it just something like it was a shout out to like a irish unification group that had a violent past. Yeah Yeah, i've no more than I care to about these people and have that that kid is fucking insane

Unknown_01: The scary part, the implication, because I just want to be clear, because a lot of people will say, or will counter and will say, well, no, there were actual threats posted on the website, and there was that one which is true. But the scary part is that should a site that hosts a threat like that for less than 15 minutes, what is the action time before you're black-holed from the internet? Could I theoretically walk into any form in any chat room and type in, I want to kill this person, and then go and report you immediately, and now your site is internet black hole? There's got to be a moderation term. But this is what you said before, where it's like, okay, where's your user agreements? What is the moderation requirement? What kind of threat can stay out? Do you really lose all of your cloud protection if a threat like that is posted within two minutes and it's not actioned? Yeah, that's a really ridiculous standard that I guess some people try to pretend existed for a minute, but I mean, nobody really cared at the end of the day. It was just whatever they could to get the site taken down, right?

0:22:03
Unknown_02: Yeah, and it's not even like the AUP is always for any reason or no reason at all. So they can always just point to the any reason or no reason at all clause for disconnecting service. And that's protected by section 230, which I am a strong proponent of. But there's section 230, I think paragraph 2C or C2B. And that paragraph is the one that says that you can disconnect something, remove something, delete something from any service as a provider and be immunized from consequences. And that is different from keeping something up, which is the first paragraph. So if I basically what that means is if someone post something on the Kiwi farms that causes civil harm you have to sue the poster not me The contrast of this is that if I delete something that somehow causes civil damages you can't sue me for it That person cannot sue me for it Actually, nobody can sue me for that. I'm immunized from any damages. So if Facebook, you know, this is what protects YouTube. YouTube can ban and demonetize anyone they want. Twitch can do the same. Facebook can do the same without, for any reason or no reason at all. And because of the second paragraph of section 230, they are completely and totally immunized from any damages. And this applies to Google results and Facebook ads, whatever.

0:23:12
Unknown_00: I actually had a question for both of you that I wrote down here prior.

0:23:45
Unknown_00: So Destiny, if I recall correctly, you actually wrote the first guide for streamers on DDoSing after it impacted your own streams and income. And this is probably years ago, right?

Unknown_00: Do you guys think there's anything that can be done to kind of create more standardized mitigation against it? Like, first of all, has there ever been any legal repercussion for such an attack as far as DDoSing? And secondly, what would the funds be needed to create some kind of infrastructure so that you don't have to rely on Cloudflare, one of these companies that maybe are at the whim of someone like Keffels.

Unknown_01: On the first thing I saw a couple people in my thread saying that like maybe you can help know Because of your DDoS protection shit when you're a consumer DDoS protection for you is keeping your IP address hidden it's fundamentally different when you're hosting a website because you want people to have your IP address or like your DNS like people have to connect to your website so any method that like I Developed to protect me or other people a lot of these are dated to because they won't use Skype anymore these other programs Well, any method that I developed isn't going to be applicable to a website because I don't want people to find me, but you want a website to be found. So, yeah.

0:24:39
Unknown_00: You do know what the Josh, you know, what the kind of money needed would be to create your own kind of DDoS protection service, like it's a thousand dollars a month at least. Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown_02: Because, I mean, I'll put it like this.

Unknown_02: There are multiple layers to the stack and you can go to protect the stack dot org, which is ran by the EFF and explains why these service providers should not make political decisions.

Unknown_02: because it harms the health of the internet. But the stack includes layers one, which is physical, to layer seven, which is the application. Layers three and four are about the network infrastructure. So what can happen is they can either just send sophisticated packets that cause the application itself to lock up, or they can send so much traffic that it simply floods the pipes, the bandwidth tubes of the internet, and prevents any legitimate traffic from reaching you. So one gigabyte per second of dedicated bandwidth is, I think, like $150. And then if you bulk up to a 10 gigabit per second connection, you'll be paying about $750 a month, depending on where at. So if you go up to 100 gigabytes per second, that's going to be between $5,000 and $10,000, depending on where.

0:25:50
Unknown_02: a very strong DDoS attack can exceed a terabyte per second. So you're talking tons and tons of money just for the bandwidth. And that's not even including the other layer, which is going to be the packet filtering, because you need sophisticated routers that are able to, not only, you have to buy special computers that can even receive 100 gigabits per second, but then you're talking about filtering through billions of packets per second as well, and somehow figuring out what's legitimate traffic. The amount of money that you need to make a company like that requires you to have significant investment capital and a customer base, which number one, the customer base can be attacked and they can be scared off from doing business with you by people like Liz Fong Jones and Capitals and Dropkiwi Farms, etc. But they can also go after your payment networks as well. And the financial censorship is something that I desperately want to touch on as well, because I don't think people fully appreciate how much soft censorship is coming from financial control.

0:26:25
Unknown_00: How expensive is it now on the other end to DDoS someone?

Unknown_02: It is like $100 a month. $100 a month.

Unknown_00: Is it illegal to DDoS someone?

Unknown_02: It is a federal crime. It's against the Computer Protection and Anti-Fraud Act.

Unknown_00: Has there ever been any legal repercussions for DDoSing? I mean, as far as you're concerned.

0:27:10
Unknown_00: Can you tell me that Liz Fong Jones openly has talked about having a botnet?

Unknown_02: Liz Fong Jones published a Go program. Basically, we have an in-house DDoS mitigator now that's written by Thomas Lynch for Fat Chan. and we borrowed this and we've run it for protecting Tor, but Liz Fong-Jones has published a Go program that is a way around this. Because the DDoS mitigator is not intelligent, especially not the one for Tor, because there's limited information. It simply uses a proof of work, kind of like cryptography, but very, very quick, so that you can load the page, your browser does work, and then in five seconds you're connected to a site. And Liz Fong-Jones wrote something to try and get around this. I've never seen it employed, though.

0:27:46
Unknown_00: Okay. Interesting. Well, kind of in that vein, I guess, you said yourself you want to talk about financial institutions.

Unknown_00: I guess, Destin, this would be a question for you. I'd rather pass it off to you to get your take first. When would you say that payment processors should step in to stop some kind of content or to interfere with someone's activity when they're using Chase Bank or TD Ameritrade?

Unknown_00: Ideologically, when it comes to backbone infrastructure, I don't think they should ever step in, absent a court order.

0:28:25
Unknown_01: And even that is iffy. Even when we're talking about payment processing for child porn, for bestiality, for animal torture, for snuff, whatever the fuck you're talking about, all of that enforcement should happen on a level that doesn't require public pressure to financial institutions. Because I think that we get into these weird areas where if you want to take somebody down, or if you want to do something, there's like different standards for enforcement at like every different type of level. Like let's say I hit a website, and I go to the government. I say, take it down. They're like, well, they're not doing anything illegal. It's like, OK, well, fuck you. I'm going to go to the ISP. Take them down. And it's like, well, you know, we looked at it. We don't know anything. It's like, fuck, OK. What about the people that do their money, you know, PayPal and all this, if it was like, okay, yeah, I guess, oh, cool, we got them. I don't like that there's like 17 different attack vectors to try to take down a website if you don't like the material that they host, because it just leaves the whole internet in such a weird fucky place, where like in the future, right, the doomsday scenario is you're in this hyper fragmented reality where it's like, Okay, I wanna be able to go to 4chan, so I can't use Cox Communications or AT&T, but if I have another ISP, I've gotta start picking and choosing which credit cards I use, which ISPs I have. Maybe in the future, what hardware I have, depending on how crazy it gets, right? I don't think that that should ever be a case, right? What you're talking about is sort of down the line, event neutrality being repealed, right? Sure, I mean, it's net neutrality, but it applies to all of this backbone infrastructure. My understanding is a lot of the anti-porn stuff on the internet, I think that was fought almost purely on the payment processor side. And yeah, I don't necessarily oppose people fighting these things. If you wanna take down Kiwi Farms, if you're gonna take down porn, if you're gonna do that, that's fine, but it shouldn't be through processing payments. It shouldn't be pressuring those types of vectors. I just feel like it's super inappropriate.

0:30:07
Unknown_02: Yeah, but it's not just even websites. The soft censorship that exists by removing somebody's ability to monetize what they do is a cancer. It's like an actual cancer that is sitting on our organs, it's constricting our lungs, it's slowly killing us, and it's just not fast enough for people to notice and take action.

Unknown_02: Just to lay this out, here's how this financial censorship works. There are four companies that basically dominate global finance. They are MasterCard, Visa, Discover, and Amex. MasterCard and VisaCard, between them control about 90% of all financial transactions that happen online, which is the dominant market now. Amex and Discover control another 5% each.

0:30:40
Unknown_02: So if you are a payment processor like Stripe, you have to stay good with all of these companies. If you lose any of them, you're out of business. People will move to a different payment processor that accepts all the networks. So any rule that any of them pass apply to everybody who uses everything. So if Discover says something, then Stripe implements it for all their customers, not just for the ones that choose to process Discover payments. So, um, and these, these rules are trade secret. And this is the real kicker. They don't outline, this is specifically what you can and cannot do, what you can and cannot allow, who you can and cannot allow on your platforms. It is a pure secret that they kind of tip their hat at and say, like, this is what we're looking for with high risk stuff. But it's at their discretion, it's at the discretion of every single one of these companies that you stay online. You have to stay good with Stripe, you have to stay good with MasterCard, VisaCard, Discover, and Amex, otherwise you're gone and you don't make money. And this happened to the Kiwi firms very early on. In fact, I use PayPal to collect donations. PayPal not only banned the site, if I try to book an Uber, I have to use specific cards because they know which cards I had on my PayPal account, and I cannot use them on Uber because they use PayPal to process transactions. It's like it that That kind of shit where you like once you're banned you can't even appeal it There's no appeals process within any of those not even a formal ban process.

0:32:07
Unknown_01: It just happens. You're like, okay Like you can't appeal it you don't get to know who made the decision you're very lucky if you even figured out which part of this this machination was responsible for it and

Unknown_02: there's no appeals process within that company and there's no government appeals process and you can't even sue them to figure out what the fuck is happening because it's a trade secret and they're not obligated by any kind of contract or law to tell you what their thought process is and this is the heart of our economy now and it's just this completely opaque black box that sits on the ground and things go in and things come out and nobody knows how it fucking works and I I think that's the most terrifying thing at all. The number one way that you could open up like true competition in the market is to make it so that anybody legally allowed to do business in the U.S. can do business until they have broken a law. And then if there's suspicion of breaking the law, there has to be timelines for appealing it, disclosing what the concern was and giving a route on how to get back onto the payment networks. And then as a last resort, there has to be a government solution to fixing the problem as well, because right now the only problem.

0:32:54
Unknown_02: I'm just gonna say that this shit is completely fucking broken. It's literally a small cabal of bankers that decide who gets to make a living right now.

0:33:28
Unknown_01: Yeah, the only problem is the reason why I don't think this will ever change is because it only affects content on the very edge. Like I'll look at like my Twitter ban or my Twitch ban, and I'll be like, fuck, like, this is unfair, like, we need to change the system, blah, blah, blah. But like, I truly really look at things like how many people get banned from Twitter, it's probably less than like a point 1% of the user user base, how many people get banned from Twitch, it's probably less than point 1% of the user base, how many people are getting like, payment processor, black hole, or ISP, it's probably Actually, there's probably only a handful of sites on the internet that's ever happened to. I don't know if anybody's actually taken a site offline as hard as Kiwi Farms before that wasn't explicitly by court order, like child porn or something. And when things exist so much at the fringe, it's so easy for everyone else to just look at it and be like, well, you know, this is probably never gonna happen to me, so I don't give a fuck. And most of them are probably right. So it's hard to get anybody to care.

0:34:06
Unknown_02: And if you really think about it, um, when someone is like removed from a platform, um, how many people have noticed, like how many people you have, like 600,000 subscribers. If you got banned from, from YouTube, like how long would it take? And how many people, how long would it take for like your subscribers to even notice that there would be like a hardcore audience, like 20,000 of those people to notice immediately. But, um, Even like half of them wouldn't even know they just wouldn't they would just stop seeing suggestions and think well I guess you stopped making videos a lot of a lot of people think like that So we're it's it's it's it's very scary, but it does impact a lot of people and that's why I think it's good to get ahead of it and for people who know that what they say is that you're like you both you and Turkey Tom do a thing where you and I

0:34:47
Unknown_02: Like websites for all the content that we put out and Like letting people know that this is the thing this is like an imminent. Oh, it's like a sort of Damocles just constantly swinging overhead that could happen at any moment and yeah, I was gonna ask you earlier like I like

0:35:25
Unknown_01: It's hard for me to balance out complaining about this stuff, because everything that you just said, you're confirming that these are actually really effective attack vectors. You should go after my Uber, you should go after my PayPal, you should contact, call those CEOs, because people know it works. It's always hard to complain about shit that people do that's effective, because it's like, well, if you guys want to really fuck with me, here's what's happening, here's what works, so go for it.

Unknown_02: Yeah, yeah, and that was a thing that I did for a long time because I had one guy in particular who's fucking psycho he's like full-on it's like swatting members of my family putting people into porn like Like spreading as far as like and like it's hard to talk about things and confirming that this is what?

Unknown_02: This is what's happening. This is what annoys me. This is what's causing problems But I'm becoming more vocal about it because it's like at this point. It's like There was a point where I was like, I sent a couple emails out to a bunch of different companies that I had spoken to before and I said, I'm about to give up. I'm pretty fucking done. I don't know how I can get around this. And then by, you know, like literally a saving grace is that someone replied and had some contacts and I got our curtain set up and that's pretty, pretty rigid. But it got there. So now I'm just going to spend the time that I have left with any kind of audience screaming at the top of my lungs that The issue is that Section 230 protects deplatforming. The banks are allowed to remove people from the financial system whenever possible. Net neutrality is a must. And this should concern everybody. So that's kind of why I wanted to talk.

0:36:39
Unknown_00: But how do you get the average person even invested in this? I mean, you know, talking solutions, like one, one, you know, way to get, um, a decent solution out there, at least have a conversation about it would be to get the average person just involved. But like you said, the average person just doesn't really care. Um, like I'm imagining trying to explain to like literally any of my, you know, IRL zoomer friends about this. They just be like, well, that sucks. And then they carry on their day because it's hard to get people invested in 1% of the population. Is there any way that you can get people to care about freedom of speech? I feel like. Even a few years ago, freedom of speech was a bigger deal online and even in real life around the Trump presidency. But since then, people have just stopped caring as much. And it seems to be getting worse and worse. With every passing year, people just don't give a shit.

0:37:18
Unknown_01: I think the biggest deal is people don't, this is kind of a hard one, and I just might be cynical here. People don't really care about the principle of anything. People don't really care about the principle of freedom of speech. What they care about is when stuff that they like is getting taken down. So when you look at defending places like, well, when you look at defending the principle of freedom of speech, if your case studies are places like Kiwi Farms, you're kind of like beyond any normal person at that point. Like, guys, there's websites that are being taken off the internet for bad reasons. Like, really, what kind of sites? Okay, well, there's a site called Kiwi Farms. Like, what do they do there?

0:38:00
Unknown_01: Well, you know, it's like a bunch of people that like obsess over law cows only. Like, what's the law cows? Okay, well, like if I explain this to you, it's gonna be really weird. It's like, okay, well, I don't know if I even care about this site. It sounds weird, you know? Like, that's the issue is that like all of the things that are being affected around it are kind of things at the fringe, right? Like, even for my stuff, like, oh, like I'm a big lefty, you know, SJW, and I got banned from Twitter, and it's not fair, and it's like, really? Damn, like, what kind of stuff did you tweet? Well, you know, I told a woman to get raped by a shovel once, but like, I'm not like a horrible person all the time, you know? And it's like, when you exist

0:38:35
Unknown_01: People don't care about the principle. They care about the stuff that they like disappearing. That's why conservatives who were traditionally like, you know, big business does whatever they want, fuck the government, blah, blah, blah. That's why they're all clamoring about section 230 now. They never cared about freedom of speech or any of this shit. It's just that when their content is getting de-hosted, now they're in favor of the government stepping in and helping. But until it's something that people like, that the principle of it is irrelevant to most people.

Unknown_02: Yeah, and that's why I try to avoid, like, ascribing to any kind of partisan or label, is because I really don't like a lot of people on the right. They do not give a fuck about freedom of speech. They give a fuck about themselves, and that goes both ways. And it's very, it's really hopeless when you see people like Nick Fuentes, who you know would let you get deplatformed in a second. They only care about their own thing.

0:39:09
Unknown_02: As far as getting people to care, you can't.

Unknown_02: It took, you know, Ron Paul went about the Federal Reserve and the debt ceiling and so on and so forth for literally decades and nobody gave a shit. He gave these huge proclamations about imminent doom and nobody cared. And now just kind of recently there's like this sudden surge in interest and silver and alternative payment methods that aren't backed by the US dollar. So it may be decades before people care.

0:39:44
Unknown_02: But I feel it's important to just kind of reiterate it as much as possible because when the time comes that people do start to care. When you can look back and articulate what the issue is and how to fix it, it can get done. You might be the canary in the... I imagine there will come a time where I just can't keep the site up anymore and I just have to move on because of the way things are and nobody's gonna come to my rescue.

Unknown_02: But hopefully by that point, I've spread the seeds of discontent far enough that there will be a positive outcome later in the future. And kind of two different related themes to this. First, if you've never heard of this speech, I would actually encourage you to go look at it, especially Destiny people who are interested in intellectual content. There's a Christopher Hitchens speech called In Defense of Hate Speech, which explains very articulately why people need to defend speech they don't necessarily agree with.

0:40:29
Unknown_02: And he asked the crowd at the theater he's speaking to, who among you would you elect as your censor? Many people would agree that there is a line of what is free or permissible speech and not permissible speech, but who would you actually elect to make those determinations for you? You have a clear idea in your head what you do and do not want to see propagated, but who do you actually trust enough to make those decisions and action them into law? And it's, most people don't have an answer for this. So when you see people like Kefl's championing, championing, like, massive corporations into fucking with people and taking their income, it's like, do you, are you really trying to make Susan Wojcicki your, your censor? Are you really trying to elect these people into a position of power over you and what you can and cannot say? Are you sure that's a great idea? Because I don't think that it is.

0:41:08
Unknown_02: And, um,

Unknown_02: I forgot my second point. I bisected my idea in half and now I lost him.

0:41:47
Unknown_00: No worries. Um, yeah, I mean, it's definitely kind of a scary time right now for me personally, as someone who I mean, I'm, you know, for viewers at home, I'm only 20. So just as I kind of became aware of the concept of freedom of speech and could even start to believe in it when I was, you know, 1314, that's when all that stuff started being ripped away with like the adpocalypse and stuff like that. Um, that's when you saw youtube clamping down. So my my kind of concept of a free internet is like 2016 I'm sure to you guys 2016 is like way far. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god Yeah, things have changed so much in the past like 25 years of like internet Well, the thing well, the thing is that's what i'm saying like people my age I don't think they even have a grasp on it and i'm trying to even as someone who's younger and is trying to get some concept of it. But for me, it's kind of hard to imagine early 2000s, like when e-bombs were rolling around or whatever, YTMND, when you had a lot of these websites. I guess one question I would have for you guys is, apart from the obvious, which is just, okay, freedom of speech is good and whatever else, what do you guys miss about that early era of the internet, early 2000s, when sites had a more libertarian kind of view of things? Everything? Do you want to explain what everything is?

0:42:29
Unknown_02: Wish I could turn back time to the good old days I Mean III don't think there was a time in the mid-2000s where I

0:43:09
Unknown_02: the people my age had just sort of taken the reins of the internet and there was a period where like the government didn't know what the fuck the internet was and anything went it was just like it was a literal wild west and anything went and you know that they had problems but it also it it was literally it was just so free it was so free any literally anyone could just boot up a fucking website and become a millionaire Like it was so competitive. It was so rich in ideas and genuine diversity And we'll never have that again. There'll never be a time period where because put this in perspective in 2008 this is my one of my favorite little allegories or metaphors or whatever the fuck but In 2008, the top 50% of websites, so the websites that competed for 50% of all web traffic, was like multiple thousands of websites. Thousands of websites competed for half of internet traffic. By 2012, which is when the internet really started to go to shit, this was like a couple hundred websites, so it already shrank massively.

0:44:07
Unknown_02: The top I bet it's like probably what less than 10. It's like 12 websites from four different companies are like half of all internet traffic It's sickening how small the internet it it's so hard to explain that it used to be like this vibrant metropolis with thousands of small businesses and now we're it's like Walmart and then Target and then McDonald's and that's that's the internet. It's like take your pick you fucking idiot and like you're welcome to the internet Yeah, I think that there's like

0:44:46
Unknown_01: I always complain about this. I wish that we could like get good things without like giving up everything Because I think there's a lot of advantages to the new internet In that like one the audience size is obviously massively grown To like as cringe as it is having a bigger diversity of people online is nice You get a lot more cultures coming together. You get like just bigger audiences you get like you get all these other people that traditionally weren't as involved in the older internet who are now on. So then in turn, if you are working in content creation, there's a reason why you can make so much fucking money on ad revenue, which is something you probably haven't made money on in a long time, all I imagine, because you get fucking blacklisted from everything. But for the people that are making content on YouTube or Twitch or other things, there's so much more money to be made today, which makes a lot of forms of content so much more viable because there's money out there to be made. So these are all really, really positive things. Um, but there was like a beauty to like the old anarchy of the internet where like just the craziest, like random people making content. Um, like a lot of the early like YouTube shit was just like random fucking kids, like making YouTube videos with no idea. Like there wasn't like a formula for thumbnails and content and all that shit. Um, and yeah, the people were crazy. I think another thing that was nice about the older internet, and I don't know if this is true or if I'm just, I might just be like nostalgia-ing out and maybe I'm delusional, but it felt like back then, there's this concept, I guess like in maybe in programming or whatever, it's like we had smart users in front of dumb terminals, and then it became dumb users in front of smart terminals. I think back then there was this idea of like, I'll call it like trolling. A lot of people on the internet used to act stupid in the internet, but it was fucking hilarious because you would like trick people into thinking you actually believed a lot of the dumb shit you said. And that was just hilarious, but that whole concept has changed. And now the internet is so much more serious to where like, you know, back in 2000, like it was funny to like tell a guy like all the different ways you were gonna kill his family. And like all the fucked up shit you could say online, because it was just, it was funny shit and it was just fucked up and crazy. But nowadays when people do it, you don't know if people are gonna actually go out and start fucking killing people. And again, maybe I don't know if I remember certain events or whatever, but that just wasn't a thing back then. The idea that somebody would actually leave the internet, go into the real world and do some of the crazy shit we talked about didn't happen. And now that people are doing it, everything's just so much more different.

0:46:48
Unknown_00: Especially just because there's more access now that, you know, if you have so many people, I mean, millions and millions of people using the internet, like one or two of them are gonna, you know, they're gonna go on Twitter and be like, I'm gonna kill you and then go cut that person's head off, right? But I mean like, it would just be like, if you've got like a forum, like, because those are people you just laugh at, especially when people get so mad, they're like talking about, I'm gonna go fucking shoot up a school or a bank.

Unknown_01: It's like, bro, you just make fun of these people, this is funny. But like, yeah, but now like, fuck, like you're like watching the news, seeing if this dude from like your thread is gonna show up, like on fucking CNN as an actual serial killer, you know? Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, what do you think about that, Null?

0:47:29
Unknown_02: Well, yeah, I mean, there are more serious... The main thing is that the internet is such a powerhouse for everything that it was basically destined to be conquered and controlled. The internet is 40 years old. It was supposedly started... It was officially born on January 1st, 1983, so it has just turned 40 years old, and it's really starting to show its age.

Unknown_02: They realized at a certain point, probably right before the Trump election, how important it is to have mass media control via the internet.

0:48:11
Unknown_02: That's really the impetus now. Deciding who can see what, what they're going to put in front of you, what they're not going to show you. These are the levers of control now for the powerful.

Unknown_02: It is. Yeah. I mean, it's a shame that it's no longer just a toy. It's no longer just like an enrichment to the human life. It is. It's a significant portion of the entire human experience at this point. And that was not the case when I was your age. When I was your age, the Internet was a much smaller piece of a bigger picture.

Unknown_01: Like back then, even like five years ago, we'd be like, this is a Twitter problem, like who cares? But now it's like, this is a Twitter problem. The entire world cares. Congress cares. The president cares. Everybody cares because these are like, yeah, like nobody was winning or losing elections before like fucking Barack Obama. And even Barack Obama, the first guy to like really start to utilize it and stuff, wasn't even doing it that much. But now like there are whole campaigns and like political movements that are born and die, like that are born from the internet and then like come to the real world. Like all the QAnon stuff, a lot of the BLM stuff, like a lot of this stuff is born and bred online and that's where it develops. So the stakes are so much higher and yeah, the real world impact is so much realer.

0:49:21
Unknown_02: Fun fact about QAnon, there is a picture of me standing next to Ron Watkins and Frederick in, I think either Japan or the Philippines, I think in the Philippines. And somebody in my family, distant family, saw this QAnon documentary, and there's this picture of me, and I got like a random message out of nowhere. It's like, is this you? Are you standing next to this guy that's supposed to be QAnon? I'm like, yeah, that's me.

Unknown_02: Which is pretty fucking surreal.

Unknown_00: You got owned. You got fucking owned. Was it in like a big documentary?

Unknown_02: Yeah, it was really big. It was by one of the major media platforms.

0:50:02
Unknown_00: Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. Well, um, that's definitely interesting. I mean, so would you say we'll, we'll never go back to that era of the internet just because the powers that, you know, that B are too big and they profit too much to allow that kind of like dissemination of, uh, you know, individual websites and people owning their own businesses and stuff like that. Like it just, it just wouldn't be convenient for them. They'd make less money or what, what is the deal there? Is that about control primarily?

Unknown_02: Nobody's the thing is that the internet is very comfortable It's never they're not people are never gonna want to go back to the time where we didn't have instantaneous Communication and access to all information in the entire world and then a lot of bullshit that's just made up. So The thing is that it's gonna be around forever. No matter what I think that I mean unironically I think that you're gonna see a resurgence of like Luddite ism where you're gonna see a growth in Amish communities and Mennonite communities where people are just like fuck this I think that's already happening, but For the most people who choose not to embrace Kaczynski-ism, you're going to have to deal with the internet being around. And as long as it is around, it's going to be widely manipulated.

0:50:38
Unknown_00: There's no way to go back. I mean, you do see some of these all tech platforms like Odyssey getting a little bit of traction or rumble, stuff like that. I mean, you see individual creators that have had problems with YouTube in the past, like Sam Hyde. He goes to Gumroad and then he gets, you know, tens of thousands a month through his paywall. There does seem to be some, like, it's not totally impossible to kind of do your own thing. Even Kiwi Farms is still, I mean, despite everything, despite, you know, whatever happened with Keppels, I thought the site was going to go down and it did, but now it's up and everyone can use it right now and it, you know, loads pretty perfectly. So. It doesn't seem like all hope is lost, right? I mean, no.

0:51:13
Unknown_01: The one thing that Joshua brings up something that's a really good point, and I wish more people would realize this, is like people will argue for like, oh, like we need privacy and oh, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nobody actually cares about that. Nobody cares about privacy. Nobody cares about rights or any of this shit. What people like is the convenience of everything, right? If you wanted privacy, nobody's forcing you to use all of the Google shit, but people did. They buy it. They want the Android. They want all of the synchronized shit. They want their email to buzz, their fucking watch to vibrate, their fucking Wi-Fi pillow that fucking jerks them off. All of this shit has to be connected. And people love the convenience from that, the convenience of having a cell phone that has all of the world's information at your fingertips and the conveniences of email and text and all of that. And the idea that people would give all of that up for some world where it's like, oh, well, they can't spy on me or sell this information to me anymore. We're never, ever going back to that. So when people talk about the world that they want for tomorrow, you have to find a way to incorporate that idea that people have all these conveniences that they're never going to give up. You have to incorporate that into whatever model you have going forward. Because pretending that people are going to walk away from it is just absolute delusion.

0:52:24
Unknown_02: Yeah, well, I mean, that's that's like the major issue with any kind of YouTube competitor like right now You know, there's a lot of times where I'm not at the computer So I want to listen to music or I want to do something and the easiest way to do that is I open up YouTube and I try to specifically find a TV They didn't have any kind of smart bullshit attached to it, but I can take out my phone find a song I want to play and then press a button to screencast it and that's really that's that's a convenience level That's so significant that it's impossible to replace right now things like rumble though. They're trying their best and

0:53:07
Unknown_02: But and this actually kind of segues into an interesting thing about like doxing is that Just to kind of preemptively jump this criticism about like allowing docs on the site is that a lot of people point blame at the forum for allowing this information to be republished and But it almost always comes from two sources, public voting records and things like Spokio, Instant Checkmate, and White Pages. And those websites get their information from public voting records and also from marketing data aggregates, which are illegal in the European Union, but not illegal in the United States. And I find it frustrating that people are very vocally against doxing, but they don't realize that this is information that's already public out there, that is a product that is sold. And I feel like more people should be concerned about that and trying to stop the commoditization of personal data.

0:53:50
Unknown_02: And nobody said- Actually, wait, I have a question.

Unknown_01: I'm kind of curious. So how do you decide what information to allow versus what not to allow on KiwiFarms? Because I think like, don't you have a ban? You can't post like social security numbers.

Unknown_02: No, I don't have a rule against that.

Unknown_01: You don't have a rule? Oh, so anybody can post.

Unknown_02: Oh, okay, well. The the rules are kind of they're enforced in a very human way It depends a lot on what I perceive as the intent of the post if it's just like hey, look at this He didn't crop this out or whatever or this email links to this. It's like, okay, whatever that's already out there I found this one white pages calm. Okay, that's already out there but if someone joins the site specifically and then dumps like a bunch of nudes and says fuck this whore like I'm Nuke in that shit right away. I'm not even playing that game because obviously this is malicious and the site's not a weapon. It's not a cudgel. It's a discussion forum. So if someone's trying to use my website to cause harm, like I can usually identify that pretty quickly and I'll delete that.

0:55:14
Unknown_01: How do you separate that out in your mind? Because realistically, there are a lot of people that if they want to cause harm to somebody, they go to Kiwi Farms because they know all the information is there. If I really want to fuck with somebody, I'm going to see if they've got a thread because then all their information is there and I can just like, yeah, do that. How do you, in your mind, Like how is one okay or not the other I guess or how do you yeah navigate that it is it is very human It's very case-by-case but like for most things the information is like a natural byproduct of someone being overly open online and not being careful it's specifically when someone is just trying to obviously cause some kind of damage and it's especially sensitive when it's pornography because

0:55:55
Unknown_02: I'm not a fan of revenge pornography. I think that will be before docs is criminalized or anything I think that revenge pornography it will be criminalized and Give given warrant to take down from the internet before like docs and stuff is it's it's mostly intent if I think someone's trying to if someone's trying to do line crossing harassment trying to intimidate somebody or calls for your that's more likely to be deleted than, like if someone who, like, I don't want to name names, but someone has like a thread that has several hundred pages over years and they have like a nude leak, well that's, there's literally no point deleting that because that's out there.

0:56:33
Unknown_00: One of the first things you said when you got in the call, Destiny, was that you don't want to defend Kiwi Farms, but you basically just want to defend its right to exist. Would that be correct? Would that be fair?

Unknown_01: Yeah, well, fuck you.

Unknown_00: What would be your main criticisms of the site in general? I'm curious to hear what you have to say.

Unknown_01: Well, I mean, I think that like the idea of like obsessing over other people's lives, and then like incessantly digging up and posting personal details and running these huge compendiums, like compiling all the personal information of somebody, like just for other people to sit jerk off over is like incredibly mentally unhealthy, but

Unknown_00: I mean, I guess in my eyes, that's the one thing that I would defend from the site because in my eyes, it's like there's a whole, I mean, maybe I'm showing my hand a little bit here, but there's a whole industry that I obviously make money off of, which is documenting online people and their stupid shenanigans. And it's generally a very accepted form of content. I mean, from the beginning of time, I mean, with Jerry Springer show, stuff like that, you had these weird people coming on, Dr. Phil. you know, bad baby or whoever else, you have these strange figures coming on. And now Kiwi Farms just kind of fills that void. But these are, you know, for the most obsessed people, obviously, and I'm not going to defend every user of Kiwi Farms, but I would say that it's probably not the worst thing in the world just to, you know, pick apart these odd figures. I mean, we've been doing documentaries about weird people forever.

0:57:19
Unknown_00: I don't, I guess I see that as like the least bad or, or not bad at all part of the farms.

Unknown_01: I think the problem is that it's very hard to keep everything self contained, like even like stuff always jumps off site, other people will go to the site for details to harass people. And even regardless of what anybody on kiwi from so I'm sure no one acknowledges there's probably users on kiwi farms that engage in harassment themselves, even if the user base discourages it just by numbers game, there's going to be some people that do it. Um, so yeah, I mean, I don't know obviously I don't as a I would be like doesn't that happen on kind of every website?

0:57:59
Unknown_00: I mean even from Twitter, you know, you're familiar with dream. Yeah Yeah, so he he got like big big docs on Twitter and got a bunch of harassment as a result of it But nobody seems to have a problem with Twitter right now. Well because on Twitter I'm pretty sure you can report that stuff and it'll get taken down, right?

Unknown_00: I guess. But I mean, that post was up for days and days. And I guess I guess the days and days because nobody reported it.

Unknown_01: Or was it up for days and days because Twitter because I'm pretty sure if you post personal information on Twitter, it's actionable, like though, I'm sure at least someone reported and I guess the thing I'm saying is that people only only seem to care about the aesthetics of it when it's written in writing and the rules versus when it actually happens, like

0:58:51
Unknown_00: You didn't see anyone causing like a moral stink about dream getting fucked with dream It was just like people found the picture of his coach in him and it was just like this fat ginger and people posted on Twitter and said this is dream and he hadn't had posted his Face by himself at that point and that was I mean there was no way Twitter couldn't it was like thousands of people just posting a picture and There's nothing to be done about it

Unknown_02: Um, it was the correct picture. Uh, he denied it at first, but I think the the real thing was that he was, you know, he had encountered success and he was using that to better himself and he wanted to post a picture of himself after losing weight.

Unknown_00: I guess I guess in my just harassment occurs everywhere on the internet. Like you. It's not really something you can stop.

Unknown_03: You absolutely can have control over how much harassment is coming from that area.

Unknown_01: That's something you absolutely can have control over. There are different moderations I can use for my community that is going to change the amount of harassment that comes, because my community will harass people depending on what you consider harassment. But if I have rules in place saying you can't directly link to somebody's social media, even though some people will harass, that one rule in and of itself is going to dramatically turn down the amount of harassment. Or if I have rules saying that you're never allowed to mention a person's name if they're not on the stream or whatever, I don't have these rules. But if I did, well, I have some of these rules. So some of these things will reduce harassment, others won't have an effect. You're never going to get rid of all harassment, but that's not the same as saying you can't get rid of any harassment.

0:59:44
Unknown_02: The one thing that we do that is like a counter harassment measure is that if you decide to contact either the person themselves, their family, their work, or law enforcement about them, if you do anything like that that crosses the barrier, if you post about it, it will be deleted. You will be warned or banned for it. And since that I consider that's that's a strong deterrent because it's it deprives that person of any attention that they would receive for that behavior. And the issue then comes in when there are communities like ours, I'm not going to name names, but anyone listening to this on my my side knows what I'm talking about. there's like a community that's sort of like ours but for a specific demographic of people from like one radio show and they are fucking insane they're like 40 plus years old on average i am pretty sure that they do swatting and stuff and then they try to blame it on us and they're extremely difficult to deal with and it's like i can't even ban them from my site Because then they just have an auxiliary site and they make new accounts and stuff and the stuff gets cross posted anyways and so it's a nightmare to deal with and I really do not appreciate it right now the threads locked I'm deciding what to do about it.

1:01:08
Unknown_02: But yeah, I guess I guess my major question for you destiny was like obviously with your community you have a policy to mitigate harassment because that's your personal prerogative but.

Unknown_00: With a site like Twitter or Kiwi Farms or any site where you can post user-generated content, you're going to have some level of harassment. Is it anyone's responsibility, do you think, to necessarily stop that? Do you think it's a moral obligation they have? Or do you think that Noel's position, which is basically he'll stop some stuff on the site for the most part unless someone's directly posting, like, OK, I'm going to fucking Get this guy swatted right now. He's not going to intervene. Do you see an issue with that policy of only taking down content that's illegal?

1:01:50
Unknown_00: That's a hard one.

Unknown_01: I don't like harassment, so I don't support it on my sites, and I'll do what I can to stop it. Do I think somebody has a moral obligation to never host harassment? I don't know if I would ever go as far as to say that. I don't know if I feel that way about that. I just, I don't like it on my stuff. It's kind of like gambling. Like I don't really support gambling. I don't really like gambling. So I'm not gonna do like gambling sponsors or whatever. But I'm gonna say, is it immoral to ever support gambling? I don't know if I'd go as far as to say that. It's just something I don't like on my site. The only thing I reject, the only thing I'll fight back on is that statement you made where it's like, oh, well, people are gonna get harassed anyway. There's nothing you can do. Like you can absolutely mitigate it if you want to. But I don't know if I would say that like you have to, that it's immoral to host harassment of people on the internet.

1:02:22
Unknown_00: Right, well this will be kind of a strange question to ask you but I'll ask it for content sake. So if you were in the position of running a website, similar to Kiwi farms, how would you try to counteract things like swatting harassment, how would you try to mitigate stuff like that, that you see is like big problems while still encouraging the culture of documentation and things like that would it be a total removal of doctors would that be it.

1:03:02
Unknown_01: It would require an autistic level of moderation. But I guess for me, when it comes to personal information, I would say that the only information that's allowed to be posted has to be directly relevant to whatever they're a low-cal for. So if you want to make fun of like DSP owning like a particular condo or whatever, and like, it's funny that he has it like a really high priced area and blah, blah, blah, then like, maybe that's like relevant. Sure. But if it's just like, but there are a lot of posts, sometimes they'll go up. And I've seen this happen on threads, I've got spun off a mine or somebody just like, Oh, I found this guy's full information. I was able to look out the window, I see that he lives here. Here's his house. Here's his blah, blah, blah, here's he went to school. And I was like, now this is really relevant to the reason why they're all kind of is really relevant for me. But like, Like the only part, like none of this is even that enriching in terms of understanding the person. The only reason- There's no good reason to have someone- Yeah, the only reason I'm opposed to this is because now it makes for a really easy like attack back there. Like now I can harass the fuck out of this person.

1:03:35
Unknown_00: And that would be my one contention with Kiwi Farms is our voice to null. What would you say to that criticism? What good reason is there to have someone's SSN there at all?

Unknown_02: I mean, it's sort of a testament to people being able to find it. It's hard to say. The fact is I don't try to justify it.

1:04:14
Unknown_02: I don't want to put myself into the position of being able to decide for people what they can and cannot say. I do prohibit people from contacting people to the best of my ability, and that's effectively all I can do.

Unknown_02: I am, I am curious what you require an insane level of moderation, right?

Unknown_00: Like it would just be so much like, yeah, there's no way you can place every post on the site.

Unknown_02: There is no, when I write my, my rules, there is a, uh, an approach that I take where the rules have to be binary. You take the rule, you hold it up to a, um,

1:04:53
Unknown_02: a post and you should be able to determine very accurately if that post violates any of those rules.

Unknown_02: I would not even know how to begin wording a rule about doxing and like what Destin said, it has to be specifically related to what they're known for. It's like, how do you enforce that equitably? I don't think that there is a way to do that.

Unknown_00: Right so your position would be just don't enforce it if it's illegal take it down, and if not, it's not your fault Yeah, and I would I would actually I would be more open to it But like I said nobody has ever cited docks as a reason why the site can't stay up I have never I have literally never once been told by any service provider that that is the reason why they cannot host the Kiwi farms It's it's well

1:05:40
Unknown_01: Docs is probably the reason though right like it's not the reason at all. I believe that I am 100% the complaint volume

Unknown_01: Yes, but it's because of the docs. That's the issue. I know like if Kiwi farms was a site where people just like shit on people and harass people and whatever then like it would just be another site where people shit on people and rescue or whatever. No, it doesn't exist. The fact that personal information gets posted there is why it draws so much ire from other people. That's why like if you talk to like any normies, I say normies, but like internet normal people and they talk about like being afraid of like a Kiwi farms that throwing up showing up on them. It's always because they're really scared of all of their docs being collected in one place, and then people like using that to direct harassment. It's not the docs. That's always when people are scared of.

1:06:18
Unknown_02: It is the fuck-ups. People like Keffels in particular do not want their, you know, their Findom fart porn to be next to their information about the HRTA directory, to be next to the information about their career as a Trans twitch streamer icon for teenagers. That's the issue It's it's almost never the docks the docks is what they point it and say like look they posted my address This is make trying to make me fear for my life That's what they say. The real reason is never that the real reason is that they are They do not want that information to be on the internet I mean, but although the information can be archived on like reddit threads and shit No, and you can't report it and take it It's taken down all the time

1:06:59
Unknown_01: It's okay. I did. I don't think so No, you can you can write a bunch of fucked-up shit about people on reddit and stuff They do and that those threads will stab and there's like fuck all reddit admins unless there's like actually docs or personal information Let's say to eat dirt kick rocks. I mean, I don't think I've seen Google Docs it taken down I've seen reddit threads get taken down without any of this information and it really depends on what kind of pool this person has but I really strongly disagree that it would just go on some other website and

Unknown_02: the reason why the Kiwi farms is up and the reason why it has the Audience size that it does is specifically because you cannot just do what we do anywhere else Yeah, but what but that's that's because of the doxing aspect.

1:07:33
Unknown_01: That's what you can't do anywhere else. I think I disagree I think that like having a thread specifically about a person that can that can you know?

Unknown_02: Just say whatever whatever you want to and kind of outline someone's highlights in a negative way I've discovered in hosting the forum that money is not the strongest form of capital. It's personal reputation, and people take that very seriously. And when someone's personal reputation is on the line, it impacts their ability, like I think you didn't complain about this, like how people, like once you get like a stigma, it's really hard to shake that dumb shit that you said, that you regret saying like 10 years ago. And like it impacts all future contact with you and how people,

1:08:11
Unknown_02: form like an initial opinion of you. And that is really, that's really powerful. That's worth a lot of money. So people are very seriously invested in taking down the site. Not even because of the docs. Again, I strongly disagree with that. It's because they want to have control over their personal reputation, which is understandable, but at the same time, to give them that is to enable them to like, to censor what other people can say.

Unknown_00: I don't know exactly what kiwi farms but I have noticed a strong anti sort of like drama or documentation sentiment with a lot of sites like YouTube, for example, they've been hitting a lot of commentary channels lately and they say, like if you post someone's personal information, like I had a video taken down. of a

1:09:00
Unknown_00: I didn't say his full name. I just said his first name and he managed to get that video taken down for harassment and cyberbullying and I have a strike on my channel. I've had it for like a year. I can't believe you fell for that.

1:09:31
Unknown_02: I can't believe you fell. Okay, we have a threat on this guy. He has sent me pictures of himself with a binky.

Unknown_00: Okay, but the point I'm making is not that I'm retarded for making the video. The point I'm making is that- He dabbed on you super hard.

Unknown_02: He fell for it.

Unknown_00: The point I'm making is that YouTube, in their guidelines, actually has changed to not allow that, and not even allow ... They have a guideline now that says intrinsic attributes. You can't make fun of someone's intrinsic attributes, meaning the way they look. Four years ago, Leafy was one of the biggest channels on the platform, and he was calling people fat, calling them retarded. I'm not going to necessarily defend all of his actions and say that's a good thing, but that was an acceptable thing on sites just a few years ago, at a time when- Is Leafy banned from YouTube right now? He's banned from YouTube. He's tried making other accounts and they get banned. They're very watchful of him. And even just the other day, another big commentary channel called Benji, who I believe hadn't even posted in a while, YouTube got him for cyberbullying and harassment because a while ago he made fun of Jacob Sartorius and called him stupid or something. And this is a thing that you see people cracking down a lot So I will say and even on even on subreddits and stuff like you see a lot more like policing and stuff Sam and Tolkien was like the boogie documentation subreddit. That's a lot. There's a lot of stuff like that that just gets taken down There were a bunch of subreddits dedicated to like Trisha Paytas and stuff that got taken down they I mean I'm telling you they crack down hard on stuff that hurts personal reputation, especially people who have pool and

1:10:54
Unknown_00: Yeah Yeah, I mean, I'm sure the docs doesn't help I'm not gonna say that that probably it's like that gives people a thing to point out and say look They're posting my address and this is to make me scared for my life even if that's not the case It definitely doesn't help.

Unknown_02: It doesn't do any any favors for the site, but The main reason is the complaint volume and the complaint volume stays high Because as the site lives on more and more people hate the fucking site because they're on it and they want to take it down it would it's like

Unknown_02: Someone, like, when it goes down, when it went down briefly, I remember all these tweets about how, like, I have a thread and it feels like a burden has been lifted off my back, like I'm free for the first time. It's like, that's a bit fucked up, but...

Unknown_00: The thing about the thing about this that I kind of want to talk about is, I feel like there's a sort of disproportionate fear of Kiwi farms versus the actual material harm it does.

1:11:49
Unknown_00: Because I mean the Kiwi farmers threat about kephalos is still up to this day right. Yet Kefla still has an audience. She still has a fan base. She's still up posting content.

Unknown_00: Nobody even seems to believe a lot of the, you know, grander accusations about HRT directory or Catboy Ranch or stuff like that. And as far as I know, her personal info is also there and nothing's happened.

Unknown_00: And so in my eyes, it's like, actually, I don't know if I have a Kiwi Farm story, but I think if I had one, even if it had like, you know, a picture of my face and pictures of my family, that would suck. I would definitely not be cool with that. I wouldn't be supportive of it. But in my opinion, the best way to deal with drama of any kind is to just fucking ignore it for a few days and it will go away. And if you just never acknowledge the existence of that thread, you don't feel that fire. Yeah, but you don't make $100,000 doing that. You don't make $100,000 ignoring it?

1:12:26
Unknown_02: Yeah. You make $100,000 making a GoFundMe and crying about transphobia.

Unknown_00: Well, okay. I honestly didn't pick up on that reference for a second. But the thing I wanted to talk about and kind of transition into, which we talked about a little bit, and I think you were critical of Destiny and all, for this decision was, Destiny, you were planning, at least in some form, to gear up for a lawsuit against Capitals, right? You sent her a cease and desist.

Unknown_00: Yeah, so basically what happened was, of all the statements she made about me, I took what I considered to be the four easiest ones to prove defamation.

1:13:04
Unknown_01: Like, you said this, you know they're false.

Unknown_01: One she even publicly stated, I think she said later on the null one, she was like, oh, I was just trying to bait him. I don't know if it was true or not, but she probably tweeted it. But there were four statements she made that she knows are false. She's never heard me say them before. I've never called her a rapist. I've never been friends with Noel. I've never directed harassment, like any of this shit, used transphobic comments. And I sent her a cease and desist.

Unknown_01: I, after sending that cease and desist, she emailed my lawyer back and she said, oh, I'm going to talk to my lawyer and see what happened, or I'm sorry, see what I should do. And she was on another streamer's show later, I think like a month later, Dylan Burns, and topics that involved me or were peripheral to me came up quite a bit. And she seemed to not want to venture into that territory. So initially, when I sent her that cease and desist, my goal was a retraction, because it would be nice to have that to point mainstream media sites towards like, hey, you've published this about me, but this person retracted their statement. She didn't post the retraction publicly, but she hasn't said anything. So basically, the next step is, I have to decide if I want to like, basically reinvigorate her whole internet career to attempt to go to court against her, which presents a couple of unique challenges.

1:13:37
Unknown_01: Or if I just want to like let her because I think that right now her trajectory is kind of like to fade into Irrelevance because she's very boring. She doesn't doing a good content. And if she's not like actually fighting with larger figures. Nobody cares about her So right now I'm just kind of like sitting in the like maybe I could just let her fade away I don't know if it would be smart to do the like the full litigation route. I

1:14:22
Unknown_02: Yeah, that's her and I think Keffels is done with it I don't know what specifically happened like they were all about that HRT directory and Bob posting and shit and then at some point Bob posting allegedly gave up on the HRT directory and vanished and then Keffels said that I'm done with not sponsoring this anymore and I'm done with Kiwi farms and that's been it and they've pretty much been silent on it and The problems have persisted.

1:14:53
Unknown_02: For instance, Google has effectively delisted the site. If you try to Google Kiwi Farms, you will not find it. If you Google Kiwi Farms Keffels, you will not find their thread because that's also been de-indexed. But the site itself is not completely de-indexed, just the index page and a couple threads.

Unknown_02: So I'm not particularly irate at Keffels anymore.

Unknown_02: Though, I mean, I have more of a legitimate tortuous interference case with Liz Fong Jones. The amount of crazy shit that they've tried to do is just insane. One of them is that Liz Fong Jones tried to get APNIC

1:15:29
Unknown_02: And just to sum this up as briefly as possible, you get IP addresses from what's called a regional internet registry. There are five RIRs in the world. APNIC is in Australia and it services Asia Pacific. If APNIC were to make the decision to revoke an IP address allocation, which is where I have my IPs from, that would mean that China, the service provider for China now has a set precedence that they will revoke IP addresses. And that is just Devastating that they would that they would do that so if Liz Long Jones had really gotten their way the the internet would be properly fucking torn apart you would start searching what I predict will be a Fracturing of the internet into small what I call lowercase I internets which is like Russia will probably the DPRK in China basically have their own lowercase I internet as it is and Well, you'll probably start seeing the EU internet the American internet the Russian internet maybe like an afrinik or afrinet and South American network probably sounds kind of like what I joked about earlier where I was like You're gonna have to choose like if you want to browse certain websites There's only certain ice piece you can have because everything's gonna be so fragmented based on yeah

1:16:20
Unknown_02: Yeah, it would be it would completely like, you know, and I think a lot of the reason why things have been so peaceful in the last couple decades is that, you know, you had all these people coming online and you're you're talking to a whole world of people and you're listening to their music and, you know, you're playing games with them and stuff and you're having conversations with them. And we're going to revert back to this extreme like.

Unknown_02: territorial, like, bordered world of not being able to talk to people anymore. And it's going to be real fucking sad when it happens. And it probably will happen because, especially for things like copyright, if there's ever going to be something that breaks apart the internet into smaller little fiefdoms occupied by, you know, like a government, it's going to be copyright shit because of piracy and how easily it is to propagate, you know, movies and stuff from countries like Ukraine that don't have copyright laws.

1:17:07
Unknown_00: You said you think what Liz Wong did constitutes torturous interference have you considered legal action in any way would that be worth it it's $75,000 to take something to trial and I It's all I like the amount of money that I've had to spend to actually deal with this is Really really pushing my zero dollar budget to it's a you think that if you did it there would be Sort of a risk that you don't win or do you think that you absolutely have a good case? I

Unknown_02: I think I would have a pretty strong case. I would have to talk to a lawyer.

1:17:57
Unknown_01: You can have a strong case, but the problem is there's always a risk you don't win. And that's the issue, right? That's one of the things I'm worried about for couples too. I think I'm very clearly on the right. I think my evidence is pretty clear. But when you're dealing with certain issues with certain people, depending on what pops up in the media, depending on who's presiding on your case, if it's a jury trial, if you lose, it's almost worse than not testing it. So you'd rather go through other means unless you literally truly have the biggest slam dunk in the world, which is very, very hard in complicated cases.

Unknown_02: There were a ton of people who were convinced that Vic Mignogna would win his virtuous interference case in Texas, and that literally did not even pass the shit test. That didn't go through the anti-SLAPP, which is the first bar of entry for any kind of defamation or related case. So, I mean, after seeing that, I'm not hopeful for any kind of TI case at all. But it would have been a really, it would be really nice, a huge win, if something like that was proven in court. Like, if you go after people's infrastructure, you go after their money, you go after their business, their hosting, that is an inner, you know, that's a civil tort.

1:18:33
Unknown_00: Right, but it just seems that no one's no one's willing to go through with that because I mean, like you guys said, I mean, it would be even if even if even if you win, I mean, you know, for years, you're going to be fighting in court, it's going to be, you know, spend 10s of thousands of dollars, potentially a month for lawyers and legal fees.

1:19:13
Unknown_00: It should be a complete pain in the ass. And, you know, let's say even if you if you do win, it's a huge, it's a huge reward, obviously, I mean, not just for you, but for the greater internet. Like with Ethan Klein, right? He won his lawsuit against the guy Matt Haas, and that was obviously a good precedent for fair use. That was great.

Unknown_02: Yeah, his shit ends up in law textbooks now about fair use.

Unknown_00: But as far as people who are willing to go through with that, or with Ethan, he had the backing of his audience who gave him like $250,000 to help. It's really hard to get that.

Unknown_00: You know, Dustin, your audience is pretty big, but I don't think it's quite as big as Ethan's was even back in the day.

1:19:48
Unknown_00: You'd probably be going through your own, your own funds. If not, you might get like, you know, 30, 40, 50 grand raised, but it would be difficult to justify spending that much time. And even at that, it's like, it feels like a weight on your life. It's, it's halting all your other progress. So it would just be difficult. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I don't really blame you for dropping that lawsuit as, as much as I would have loved to see it happen.

Unknown_02: Like if I had them, if I won the lottery today, I would probably carpet bomb people with lawsuits just because just to be as vindictive as possible.

Unknown_00: Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough.

1:20:21
Unknown_00: Oh, well, um, so I think as you guys want it, you guys want to talk about, I mean, uh, that's, that's the end of my questions in particular, but you guys are obviously good friends. You played Starcraft back in the day, so.

Unknown_02: Actually, I have a I wrote this down says on the piece of paper. I literally took notes. These are my grading scale For my expectations for this conversation. I would give myself an F for getting angry for any reason I would give myself a D if I made a serious like blunder in my conversation I may give myself a C if I managed to escape unmolested a B for exposing audience new ideas and a Getting destiny to fund the Kiwi farms destiny What would it take for you to fund Kiwi Farms?

1:21:01
Unknown_01: You guys are all set up now. You're good.

Unknown_02: What? I mean, I still have shit I need to do. I'm not completely back. Like I said, I got legal legal services to find and replace. You should just implement things like like one thing, a really common thing that a lot of private torrent sites do is your account gets deleted for inactivity.

Unknown_01: If you don't use it for 30 days, unless you do like a one time crypto donation or some shit, you should do shit like that. Easy way to raise money.

Unknown_00: Destiny, whatever reservations you have about funding the Kiwi farms, what number would you need for it to be? Well could there be a return on investment Josh could he get his money back, and that's um God For investments are you looking for fucking donations both?

1:21:35
Unknown_02: I mean like what I'm considering right now is like some kind of open I would like to create open source for instance We've it's in for has banned us, so we can't renew our license with them anymore Which means the software is just going to be continually getting out of date as time goes on I have this here your DDoS mitigation stuff No, this is just the actual forum software. Zenforo is a premium license. So the forum itself, I cannot update the software.

Unknown_02: And that means that if I have to keep my eye open for security things and patch them manually. I actually do a lot of manual patching to Zenforo and it's a pain in the ass. So I would like to write an open source forum software that can compete with Zenforo first and foremost. I would also like to make a either open source or just launch like a small-time competitor to Cloudflare that can help riskier sites with the proof-of-work DDoS protection that I was talking about before. Because the thing with Cloudflare is that they have to like do real-time protection against tons of new threats that come out all the time because they're so big. They're like half the internet. But with a smaller company, the interest in attacking it is much smaller, so it won't create so many problems. But I'm thinking about that. Andrew Anglin actually said that he is looking for developers, because I think he's also banned and having issues getting Zenforo updated. I'm thinking if he has money, he should give me fucking money.

1:22:48
Unknown_00: Andrew Anglin is Daily Stormer, right? Yes.

Unknown_02: But I think he hates me because I don't like Nick Fuentes or whatever the fuck.

Unknown_00: Oh, I see. Okay, gotcha. Hey, you guys, you guys both seem to have some some issues with Nick Fuentes. You seem to be critical of him.

1:23:20
Unknown_00: Maybe for different reasons? I thought Andrew Anglin likes Nick Fuentes.

Unknown_02: Am I wrong?

Unknown_00: No, no, no, you, you and Destiny, I mean.

Unknown_02: I thought, I thought you guys hang out in real life.

Unknown_01: Yeah, you know what? We were best friends and then he backstabbed me. He took down our, he took down one of your favorite content creators, Mr. Grohl. I thought you hated Mr. Grohl now.

Unknown_01: Yeah, I do, but it was the principle of it. A long time ago, there were people on Cozy that were fucking spam reporting Mr. Girl's channel, like take him down. And I was like, Nick, if we're chatting, I can't have other people in your platform spam reporting him. But I didn't also know that I was stepping into this whole bag of shit where Fuentes and his whole community had already been fighting about de-platforming people, because they'd fought with Ethan Ralph.

1:23:56
Unknown_01: And they all like spam reported his shit too. So apparently that community is a whole backstory of like how they feel about spam reporting everybody and taking people down.

Unknown_02: I am pretty sure I don't have evidence. It's a simply a feeling that I get. So don't pull out any surveys to cross correct me on this. I am pretty sure that Nick Fuentes has like a group of people who are responsible for all the swattings. Like the Marjorie Taylor Greene shit, Marjorie Taylor Greene had no presence on the forum. Keffil's Docs was not on the forum and they got swatted and we got blamed for it. And Nick Fuentes' people hate us. So I am pretty convinced that it's Nick Fuentes' people.

1:24:36
Unknown_01: Yeah, it might be. I think the attitudes in their community are very much like the world has fucked us, so we're gonna burn the world. And I can't really blame them, I guess, because if Fuentes is getting kicked out of banks and shit, then yeah, why would you adhere to any principles about de-platforming? Do you have any evidence for that belief, Josh?

Unknown_00: Is there stuff you wanna talk about?

Unknown_02: No, I clarified that statement by saying that it's intuition only.

Unknown_00: Intuition only, okay, gotcha. Well, it'd be interesting to see if anything comes out about that. That'd be the biggest drama ever. Um, but I guess we probably won't hear that on the subject of you brought up Mr. Girl.

1:25:11
Unknown_00: My question for you, Destiny, maybe this is a played out question, but the thing, the two things I hear about Mr. Girl, when I hear him brought up. are A, people like Vito or whatever. He's the funniest guy ever. He's making the best content in the world. He's based. And the B answer is he's a pedophile. What is the deal with that? Is he a pedophile?

Unknown_01: I don't think he is, but I mean, he's obviously very fucking edgy. And for a lot of people, there's no difference between being a pedophile versus making pedophilic jokes. All of it is indicative of some fucked up shit. For my shit, I just really like interesting people. And a lot of the people that I intersect with tend to be fucking insane, but they're interesting still.

1:25:46
Unknown_00: So I think people point to is the cuties review. Is that is that satire that is stance on that?

Unknown_01: Um, I mean like fuck don't wrote me into this whole shit like there are worlds where you can have like these analyses of like Media and all this blah blah blah shit. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be the next cutie guys. Okay, nice try.

Unknown_00: Fuck you I'm not trying to get you to defend cuties or anything like that. I'm just curious. I'm a dozen destiny. I'm a destiny fan. Okay, I'm yeah the

Unknown_01: The broad stroke that he was trying to get across, stroke at it, the broad message he was trying to get across was that the nine-year-old girls in the Cuties Review were hot, and the whole point of the movie was to make them hot, and that's the problem, is that we're sexualizing minors, and that's what the movie was trying to get across, and it does it well. That's his argument. But obviously there are people that would say if you ever find like nine-year-old girls hot then you're so fucking creepy Just the way he's like salivating over it makes my fucking skin crawl and what I've learned.

1:26:31
Unknown_02: This is again. This is anecdotes I I took the whole libertarian stance on like lollicon and I had like a rehabilitative I believe in reformative justice and I had like a rehabilitative opinion on pedophiles like we I we should be doing things to like help these people and I can understand that people into lollicon probably can separate it in their head from like real kids because obviously drawings and real kids are really different. What I've learned over the years dealing with the people that I do and trying to moderate image boards and host image boards is that the people who talk about being pedophiles as a joke end up becoming pedophiles or coming out or being identified as a pedophile and the people who post lollicon also post child pornography. So my opinion from a very libertine stance on this kind of stuff is really completely 180 to like, I think that these people are an active threat to other people and they should be taken out of society as quickly as possible when identified.

1:27:04
Unknown_00: An example of someone who used to joke about it and then started defending it and then ended up being an actual pedophile would be Amosie, right? Who you talked to, Destiny, who's now in jail, I believe. Well, no, hold on.

Unknown_01: That's different, okay? Because Amosie, he wasn't like, oh, like lollipop is okay. He was always like, you should be able to fuck a one-year-old child and it's okay. So he was always out as like a fucking insane dude. It's not like he was ever like mask on. That guy was fucking wild.

1:27:54
Unknown_00: I think for a little bit it was mask on though, because at first he, like right when he got big, that's when he started saying that shit, but it wasn't right away. Oh, maybe not.

Unknown_01: I just know that when I debated him, he was saying that you should be able to have sex as long as you don't like open, like tear them up. You should be able to have sex with like a fucking two month old child. That was when I debated him. So he was always way the fuck out there in pedophile land. Yeah, that's a lot different than like some guys like, oh, she's got a thousand year old spirit. My lollicon, whatever bullshit like, yeah, that guy was Nick. He was always Nick Bate was the one who said he was joking about being a pedophile and he got convicted of harassing his sister.

1:28:29
Unknown_00: You have a take on lollicon destiny. Do you are you a pro or anti lollicon? How do you feel about lollicon?

Unknown_01: I feel about, I just don't care that much. I don't know. I don't, if people want to jerk off to fucking cartoon drawings or whatever, fucking knock yourself out. I don't know. I don't care.

Unknown_00: Destiny, official member of the Digibro gang. Shout out, Digibro gang. Shout out, Rev says to Sue. Okay. He's on your side. I'm more of a furry con guy myself, you know, so.

Unknown_02: Furrycon, oh my god, are you joining team Adam? You gonna dress up as a horse?

Unknown_01: I think I love furries, dude. I don't. I just don't care. Listen, everybody can go knock themselves out, do their own shit.

1:29:07
Unknown_02: Furries are retroactively, like, decent at this point. Like, the internet is so shitty now that it's like, whatever, furries. Yeah, compared to the grand scheme of things, it's like, I'm a furry.

Unknown_01: It's like, okay. There's, like, way worse shit that you could be involved in, so yeah.

Unknown_01: What I'm kind of curious is how much this is a full time job for you is a kiwi farm shit, right?

Unknown_02: Yeah, it occupies a lot of my time. I try to get like side projects out and stuff, but I'm pretty busy.

Unknown_01: What is like the and I don't because these are all things I've heard So, I don't know if I'm not trying to trigger you or I don't know if this is like shit that you hate or whatever So just in things have random things. I've heard you started with a guy a long time ago called Cogs death Right when it was like a when you like the cookie forums, or I don't know how the fuck you pronounce it Like where how did why did you like rebrand? Why because just like the origin story in general? Yeah, I guess yeah, I'm kind of curious Yeah, the actual because I read so many different things. I never know what the fuck is true or not. I

1:29:49
Unknown_02: There there are there are a lot of like like in journals take I don't know what the fuck it is with the media journals do not give a shit about getting things I I thought for most of my life that they wanted they actually made like a an Effort to understand things before they write about them. They do not give a fuck about what they're putting out there They do not care the origin of black tells you more on some like media especially writing about alternative stuff that they don't care about more than when they start writing about you

1:30:21
Unknown_01: Like read some shit about me. It's like bro. Are you serious? You can find the answers with sources on Wikipedia?

Unknown_02: What the fuck are you doing? How can you how can you possibly be so wrong?

Unknown_02: Okay, origin story there once was a man named Christian lesson Chandler He decided in infinite wisdom that it would be a great idea to take Pikachu the Pokemon and Sonic the Hedgehog the hedgehog and make them into one, the electric hedgehog Pokemon, Sonichu. He further decided that it would be a great idea to make an online webcomic called Sonichu about his creation. He also decided that this online webcomic would then be a suitable place for him to talk about his adventures in trying to find a boyfriend-free girl. And of course, because this was on the internet in the mid-2000s, it became a topic of discussion on Something Awful and then later 4chan's V. And then they made an entire wiki dedicated to Christian Weston Chandler called The Quickie, which is C-W-C-K-I pronounced Quickie.

1:30:55
Unknown_00: Gotcha.

Unknown_02: The discussion about Chris sprawled into the talk pages and this was mostly like hypotheticals and Q&A type stuff that really didn't belong in the talk pages of a wiki because you wouldn't have this in like a discussion page on Wikipedia. So CogsDev, who was the admin of The Quickie, who now hates me because I think Cogs is trans,

1:31:42
Unknown_02: Decided that we needed a containment website for these so-called spergs And so the quickie forums was burnt born and it was administrated by a man named champ them who had Richard Nixon from Futurama as an avatar This site had problems staying up because people who got banned from the site would complain to hosts and so on and then after about two years on February 3rd 2013

Unknown_02: They accepted my offer to make me their permanent host, and so I was the admin of the QuickieForums a little over, just under, about 10 days to 10 years ago. I became the administrator of the site. And then in 2014, I want to say, the topic of discussion kind of branched out past just CWC. I ended up becoming like the lead admin, all the other admins kind of dropped off, and I sort of inherited the forum. And the KiwiForums was the pronunciation of the site's name, QuickieForums, because it's spelled awkwardly, by a couple different people who had threads. So we just sort of retroactively adopted that as like a backronym for the site. And it just went from there.

1:32:35
Unknown_01: Gotcha, where did you um when did it become like a full-time job for you like how long ago?

Unknown_02: so when I first started hosting the site the reason why I picked it up is because I was actually a PHP developer for a Payroll company in Australia, and I worked for me remotely I was with that company. It was my first real programming job. I had that for about three and a half years. I want to say and

1:33:15
Unknown_02: I got really bored of my job because I was dealing with the quickie forums and I was dealing with all these interesting security threats and novel problems and I just got more and more interested in what I was doing and eventually I just told the company like Because my productivity was dropping off and they were like, is there like an issue? Do you like still want to work for us? I was like, no, I kind of want to go out and do my own thing. And from there I went, because I was unemployed at the time, I still had like a lot of savings, so I wasn't like destitute. I actually had met Frederick Brennan from the Thread on the Key, I think then Quickie Forums. About wizard Chan, which is the website for for incels that he that he founded and I Pitched him because he had also founded 8chan in the interim I said we should probably rewrite 8chan and because the the form soft the software that they use for each end was shit and That's when I moved to the Philippines from Australia to work with Frederick as his neighbor basically on the placement HN software Damn, all right. I can save it up

1:34:18
Unknown_02: Um, in total February 3rd will be 10 years under my administration. I don't know how long it's been around in total.

Unknown_00: All right. Well, one last thing I want to talk about, um, as far as things I wrote down that I forgot to talk about was, um, last time we were on stream and all you talked about how you believe that the inception of the cancel culture sort of online that exists, um, was gamer gates 10 years ago. Um, and I was kind of curious what your thoughts were on that destiny as someone who's dealt with a lot of that kind of interference with your business.

1:34:50
Unknown_01: Um, I thought the Gamergate shit was cringe as fuck. Um, the problem is that like, uh, this is where my SJW shit will come in, I guess, is that, like, there are legitimately a lot of people on the internet that just fucking hate women, especially in the gamer communities, because like, there's not a lot of women here. When you think of women, you just think of people that are policing your language or, you know, people that won't fuck you in real life. And I feel like movements like that ended up getting co-opted by so many fucking Horrible hateful people that like the whole movement just gets like kind of fucked and I feel like that kind of happened again Like I think there were legitimate criticisms I'm pretty sure early on relating to Zoe Quinn and all that stuff in the gamergate shit but like when the leaders of your movement the faces are people like Sargon of a cotton shit or like all of these like pretty like right-leaning very like anti-sgw people like Everything just gets so political so quickly that it evolved into some crazy stupid shit very fast, but right

1:35:36
Unknown_00: But even among the stupidity, you had genuine like you know derangement I would say from some people who would go to websites like polygon or whatever else and try to get their sponsors cut.

Unknown_00: You can explain it yourself as well, but that was sort of the inception of this whole like what they did is that they had There are these company.

Unknown_02: Okay, just real quick. I mean, this is if you're you're trying to make your fucking video. This is how you lay it out There was the Zoe Quinn shit They complained about it because Zoe Quinn her terrible fucking any game was rated best game best indie game by five different publications by that had editors on the staff that were men that she was fucking and People complained about this. And so the media, at the time, this was 2014, so people really trusted the media, put out all these articles saying that gamers are horrible misogynists and racists and assholes and gamers are dead.

1:36:27
Unknown_02: This upset a ton of people. And in response, those people started going to Polygon's, Kotaku's advertisers and their advertiser networks and complaining to try and get them to go bankrupt. And I think with Kotaku, they succeeded.

Unknown_02: So as far as I'm, as I can remember, this was like the first time that a mob of people would complain to like providers and to beneficiaries and so on and so forth to try and financially destroy someone basically for just saying something they didn't like.

Unknown_02: And that's typically cancel culture is sort of associated with the left.

1:37:01
Unknown_00: But that was sort of a more, you know, moderately right wing kind of anti-SJW. Yeah. I mean, nowadays it's like it's it's both ways.

Unknown_02: And I mean, I guess it kind of makes like when Disney put in mask mandates for their parks, people boycotted that. And they keep putting out like stuff that's considered woke so people cancel Disney plus and yada yada like it goes back and forth it's it's it's an issue with the country and basically the. You know the West as a whole being split down the middle between insert like conservative and this far left stuff where. Like with Destiny, Destiny diverges from, you know, majority consensus on, like, woke shit in literally one way. It's like, I think he said transgender athletes have an innate advantage competitively. And that's like, whoa, buddy, you're a horrible bigot now. You don't deserve to be able to feed yourself. I hope you go bankrupt.

1:37:40
Unknown_02: So, and then of course people on the right can't accept him because he's like polyamorous and whatever the fuck and it's a very strange like hyper polar polarity between these two sides that's kind of ruining everything very, very rapidly.

Unknown_01: Yeah, I think like I said earlier, the way you have to view it is nobody really has any principal position. It's just when their shit gets attacked. That's the only thing that people really care about. And if people have the ability to like use a tool, a hammer against somebody else, like they'll do it, whether it's doxing, deplatforming, spam reporting, whatever the fuck else, like nobody actually cares. They'll do whatever they can to take somebody out.

1:38:14
Unknown_02: yeah um and this is uh i've referenced this twice now uh schmidt and his opinion that there is no such thing as apolitical anymore or this was like in 1800s but everything is political and choosing to be apolitical is itself political and that's just how everyone says like everything is fair in love and war and we're just gonna We're gonna like actively ruin absolutely everything to try and have our way.

1:38:47
Unknown_02: So that's why it's like free speech. Free speech is just not something anyone cares about anymore in general. And it's really sad.

Unknown_00: Yeah, yeah, I agree for sure. Cool. Good to see that you guys are best friends now and are going to be playing a lot of video games together. I hope in the future if I am on fire and rolling around on the floor, you'll at least spit on me, you know.

Unknown_02: I'll put you out, my dude.

Unknown_00: Thanks a lot, dude. All right. Thank you for coming on, Destiny. Take care. Thanks for having me. Have a good one, guys. Good luck. Yeah. Bye.

1:39:23
Unknown_02: Oh, that was very abrupt. I wasn't actually

Unknown_02: I wasn't actually expecting it to end like that. He has to go to bed. It's bedtime for Turkey Tom.

Unknown_02: Okay, I will read the superchats, I guess.

Unknown_02: Yeah, that was abrupt. I don't know if Destiny Ever wants to catch up again. I'll read the superchats now. I guess we're done. I shouldn't make it green just yet, I guess. I'm not reading them.

1:39:53
Unknown_02: uh yeah i mean i i took it very passively and i wasn't i don't feel like i was challenged enough to sort of make anything i said stick to be honest with you and i didn't get him to fund my site so i didn't get an a i got a b by my by my ranking um

Unknown_02: I don't know, maybe I planted the seed and one day he'll be like, Josh, my friend, my dear friend, we should play Dota together and also I will fund your stupid website, at least in part. I'll be like, thank you. Thank you, Destiny, my friend.

1:40:27
Unknown_02: Proceed with us. Def of B, F.

Unknown_02: Okay, um, that was interesting. Uh, like I, I kind of prepared for this very vaguely by talking to people in new destiny and everyone said destiny isn't super confrontational unless you give them like a reason to be. So I just said, okay, fuck it. I'm just going to like set every set, set aside criticism. Cause my thing is like, if

1:41:00
Unknown_02: If I wanna just shit on Destiny, I'll just do it in his thread. I really don't need his input on it, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not gonna... I'm not gonna convince him of anything in regards to, like, how I... how I think, like, polyamory is bad for you, how I think, like, life-swapping and shit is not healthy for the human mind. I think that we're evolutionary predisposed to healthy monogamous relationships, and... I mean... That shit is like he'll pull out the surveys and stuff and be like, well, have you ever been in a polyamorous relationship? Have you ever sucked a dick? How do you know these things? Like, well, I guess not. And it wouldn't go anywhere. So that's my that's my thought on that.

1:41:32
Unknown_02: Very strange decision to abruptly end, but whatever, I will.

Unknown_02: I'll end it there, I'll read the super berries and then I'm going to go order some food because I'm actually starving. I haven't had anything to eat today.

Unknown_02: Let's see.

Unknown_02: Thank you, by the way, for those few people who have decided to tip during these things.

Unknown_02: Recent donations, filter by today. Sikalola410 says, wishing you a happy new year. Cheers from the inner mongol. Oh, fuck, I did not set the, oh wait, no, it's tomorrow.

1:42:06
Unknown_02: Uh, Lunar New Year. Okay, it's tomorrow. I have to set- change the forum to the Chinese theme. Uh, we usually give cash gifts to subordinates and children on this occasion. That's true, the red envelopes. Thank you, CQLother. Niggardlywet410 says, I'm sorry, but your old SC2 buddy set you up. Here's pretty money. That's true. It did look like he was gonna no-show because it took so long, but whatever. Thank you. Uh, Pierre Musgrave4541 says, ARGH! I hate raiders! ARGH! Shiver me timmies! Shiver me raiders! ARGH!

Unknown_02: Which is a reference to a very base video that floats around on the internet. Thank you! Uh, Nickel Colored Frog. Frog says, So mad I got scammed of the two nickel coins. That's why every time I go nickel shopping, I pull out my pocket weight and mounts, especially if there's a snowy complexion. I'm a man of Christian faith. Nobody wants nickel. Nice try, Nickel Colored Frog, but thank you. Thank you for your money, which is worth a quarter an ounce of silver right now. DirksidePhil for five says, oh wait, that's actually three dollars due to the tax situation, dude. Say neighbor, neighbor, neighbor. No, I will not. I'm a good boy. I've been reformed by Turkey Tom and Dustin to not saying the gamer word. Thank you. Girljosh three dollar coins at for ten says, I'll never forget what you did to me fat ass for taking me to court. Well, you just tipped me all my coins back, so now you can't prove damages. Thank you. Half black listener for three says can he call ralph fat and gunted for chat chat? I don't know if you know this but there's a guy called ethan ralph and he's really fat and he's a bifurcated gunt and it's Exceedingly embarrassing how sloppy and gross and drunk and fucked up. He is all the time now And he'll it fan 696 for 217 says something but I didn't I lost the page. I don't know how I accomplished that um

1:43:50
Unknown_02: I really don't know how it comes- Okay. Do you agree that freedom of speech is absolute and applies universally for no exceptions? No, I no longer do. I think that some people should die.

Unknown_02: You know who.

Unknown_02: Rabbi Herschel Lieberman Berg Blatstein for 15 says I sent you an email to Josh at Josh regarding my patches order Was that the right dress? No say send anything about patches to JC moon at p.m. Dot me. Thank you for the 15 though I'm not honest for one says me a poor fag donate $1 to Joshua Nolman so you can build his own internet and financial system He's awesome, and we'll read my super chat I did though you did spell internet with the lowercase I which does not give any hope for the future I mean how many times do I have to tell you that it's a capital I?

1:44:30
Unknown_02: Now there's a second page

Unknown_02: Game of moans for five says you really should have the donation link in the description get better at shilling I intentionally didn't put it there because it's like I don't want to show too much this stream Thank you, and Lord of lighting for 2017 head Keffel's thread and by extension the farms is indexed on Google for me farm chuds win again I don't know how you found it. I went to I searched Keffel's Kiwi farms and did not find it for like eight pages So I gave up I'm glad if that's the case though. Maybe it's only in Europe that it's the index and Winston Fujimori for three says happy year of the rabbit Josh Pippa and her husband goes politics Wish you a year blessed with good fortune PPPP. Thank you very much. Hopefully it will be prosperous for everyone I hope everyone has a great Lunar New Year. If you're of a chanky persuasion, I hope that The year of the rabbit is fortuitous with you and ocean reacts pretends as this was supremely cause and nice to be honest I'm glad you thought so A lot of people seem to think it was boring, but I tried to... I don't know, I just tried to state my case. Because I feel like everyone is polarized and hyper fucking retarded and they need to get over that. And understand that if you start electing people to be your censor, you're going to be fucked over no matter what. The only way is to not have a censor. Now I'm surprised as hey, oh my god, there's hey George. Have you seen the Tom Spurgell of him young? I'm a fucking internet celebrity Why do you give these content slurry brain children a leg to stand on?

1:45:41
Unknown_02: I? Mean, I've not I've not actually seen that Tom Spurgell yelling. I'm a fucking internet celebrity You

Unknown_03: I don't see that when I searched it.

Unknown_02: Sorry. It's posted in the Man with the Internet thread. I'd be interested in seeing it. Okay, look. People gave me shit and say that I was like sucking up to him.

1:46:16
Unknown_02: He's literally like a child.

Unknown_02: Poor, innocent, baby child, you know nothing. Nothing, child. You think you can speak, but you know nothing. It's like, listen, he's high on his own farts because he's very successful for his age. Good for him. He will temper down with age. I think he comes from a good place. Why am I a fucking bad guy for saying, no, the 20 year old should be should be fucking spiked to the palms like Christ. Calm down. God damn it.

Unknown_02: The internet, the legendary Mr. Chirac for two says, when you start the Kiwi Farms Bank, will we be allowed to have a Christian card? No, you will not. I'm not putting Chris on anything. It'll ruin my entire bank that Destiny has funded for me. OK, don't donate anymore. I'm done. I'm going to go order some mozzarella sticks. I feel like I'm in the mood for mozzarella sticks. I will see you guys on Friday, which will be the week before the anniversary of the site. See you then. Bye bye.

1:46:53
Unknown_02: Bye. Where's the button? There it is. Bye bye.